"But brands know that they can cut plus sizes and plus size consumers will come right back if and when the bigger sizes return. Because what other option do we have?"
This is so true and soooo enraging to me that I am finally taking the plunge and learning to sew my own clothes. Talk about slow fashion (ha) but I won't feel as gross about the whole ordeal at least. It makes me feel like garbage jumping through hoops to pay someone to barely entertain me as a customer, and I'm just done.
I started to learn to sew just about a year ago for many reasons, this being one. And it’s pretty amazing. Definitely slower, sometimes frustrating but you can get pretty good quickly. I did an online class with Sew Liberated to learn to make pajamas to start, I absolutely recommend it.
Oh wow, thanks for the tip! Did you find the pattern worked for bigger sizes? That's what I'm most concerned about with these classes. I really want to learn to make my own patterns so I can fit my body just right.
It definitely varies by pattern maker but there are a good amount of indie pattern companies that are making up to a size 30 based on what I’ve seen. I just checked sew liberated and they’ve got patterns up to a size 34. Also you could check out matchy matchy sewing club, which I see up to a 6x. Chalk and notch, Friday pattern company are both also good. Sometimes a pattern will split so you buy one for a size 0-16 and one for size 18-30 and that’s always a little tricky for me because I fall right in the middle but you just go by your measurements and you can always figure out how to tailor if you go too big.
I sort of wonder whether the declines in the small fat range are because of “vanity”changes in the size definition. It just doesn’t track for me mathematically. Even with a large number of people on (expensive) GLP-1s, and the smaller percentage of THAT group who actually lose enough to change sizes, AND then fall into straight sizes — relative to the size of the country and therefore the clothing market, it’s a small number. This is just a really strange capitalism fail. Can fat phobia really be stronger than a profit motive?
Yes! I had this same thought. As someone who wears a 4X if I were to go on ozempic, I would most likely still need a 3X maybe a large 2X. So the math doesn’t work on that.
It absolutely is. See: years of brands refusing to expand sizing when the majority of american women are a size 14 or above. They've been leaving money on the table because they don't want fat people wearing their brand. Also see: Lululemon, old Abercrombie CEO and others. 😡
I do think this is somewhat true and is also related at least in things like tops or dresses— the trend for giant and oversized means (1) an XXL or even XL top fits many 2X bodies albeit less oversized than on a straight sized body; (2) a non zero number of 2X customers will give up on fashion buy the XXL because of brands’ inability to THINK when scaling up becomes so much more apparent (aka the “giant hammer loop” problem). In Madewell, e.g., I always try for XXL when it’s there because their 2X is always a wild set of inconsistent measurements that look odd on me.
I do also think that variations in how bodies are can be more pronounced at larger sizes which compounds the hammer loop problem. Sizing is inexact for everyone but when my type of fat is more legs and thighs and another type of fat is back and arms you can’t size up the same size 8 dress to fit both of us— only half the 2X market might buy a dress available to the entire size 8 market. So I can see how mathematicallly extended sizes can be the largest part of the market and yet sales of any ONE size are small enough to jettison for a brand. (I mean I’m sure it’s anti fat bias too, but it is probably not ONLY an anti fat bias.)
Ugh that article! I remember it when it came out. I have so many issues with the reporting and analysis. It totally strikes me as what we used to call an “elevator story.” (a story that happens because of something an editor overheard in their luxury apartment elevator.)
Man, this sucks. I've always had mild beef with them as someone at the upper limit of straight size, verging into plus, you are not allowed to be both plus size AND tall.
This holds true for a lot of retailers, actually… News flash: Not all of us tall women are willowy, fam.
I’m all for learning to sew and for thrifting and trading clothes, but it’s so unfair that only certain people of certain sizes need to consider those options.
The anger and sadness I’ve been holding about Madewell feels almost intolerable? This is a brand that, for a few years, populated almost every new item in my wardrobe. I had “cool” jeans for the first time in my life! A trendy dress that didn’t come from Old Navy? Incredible! I was, for the first time, actually excited to click on a marketing email for new arrivals and see things I actually wanted! In my size! And now … disappointment. I am tired of being disappointed again and again.
I make a habit of emailing them regularly about this and usually get a perfectly nice email back — I’m surprised that one you cited said as much as it did! Here’s my most recent one from July:
“Thank you for your feedback regarding the limited selection of plus-size offerings on our website and I sincerely apologize for any disappointment and inconvenience this has caused you.
“I understand your concerns about the declining selection and infrequent updates to our plus-size collection. We strive to provide a diverse range of options for all our customers, and I apologize if we have not met your expectations in this regard. Your feedback regarding the number of available items and the limited sizes is duly noted.
“I want you to know that we appreciate your loyalty to our brand and your continued interest in shopping with us. I assure you that I will escalate your feedback to our dedicated team. It is important to us that your voice is heard, and we will carefully consider your suggestions and concerns in our ongoing efforts to improve our offerings.
“We understand how frustrating it can be when the items you are interested in sell out quickly or are not available in your size during sales. Rest assured, we are actively working to address these challenges and enhance our inventory management to better meet the needs of all our customers.
“Thank you for your understanding and support.”
Guess plus-size folks don’t fall under the umbrella of “all our customers”?
It's weird how they obfuscate the actual reason for your concern - the lack of plus size availability across the whole collection - by talking about how frustrating it is when things "sell out quickly" or "are not available during sales", which is....not the same thing.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's been giving them grief about this in their inboxes. I've gotten basically the same responses you have most of the time. My email asking specifically about brand new denim releases that had 26W and 28W marked as "out of stock" from the very day they went live on the site was what prompted the response Corinne cites here. It's shitty to give customers false info/hope and I told them as much (but you know, slightly more politely).
Yes!!! I work in TV/film in the costume department so spend a lot of time with name brand clothes in tiny sizes and the joy I felt when I could finally ALSO wear a brand like Madewell! As a jeans and tshirt kind of gal it really was so wonderful. Then in past years I started to notice that if I clicked on even just the basic tshirt the option went from 27 to 5 as I clicked from straight to plus and now this??
I haven’t seen any in several months here in Georgia. My daughter and I didn’t find a single 4X when we combed the racks during our last few trips. Still available online, though. I’m a Red Card holder and devoted Target shopper, and though I don’t wear 4X myself, my daughter does. (I’m more a 2/3X.) in any case, it pisses me off.
I wonder if a lot of this also relates to brands wanting to tamp down on returns, which I believe are a huge area of profit loss. I feel like it’s so much harder for me to find clothing that fits well so I’m nearly always returning an item at least once to find the proper size, whereas my straight-sized wife is usually one and done.
I really wish they would deal with one of the actual common problems there, which is that so many brands are not sizing up patterns properly for fat bodies. My returning items to find the right fit is a symptom of their issues with providing clothes for fat people, but instead of fixing their in house errors, they penalize a whole customer demographic. It makes no senssssssse.
Ughhh I don’t shop Madewell often but one of my favorite dresses I bought last year is from there. Anecdotally I personally buy a lot of XL, XXL and 1X clothes and bought 5 dresses, 3 swimsuits, 3 pairs of jeans, and 3 Kamala Harris shirts in recent weeks trying to prepare for my election volunteering and anniversary. I remember when plus sizes were in store for Old Navy because I had just given birth and I appreciated the wider range. None of my friends are on Ozempic, my friend’s husband went off of it after a year because he felt like the GI issues were too much for him and ultimately plateaued fairly quickly as he would with any diet. Fat people buy clothes, I don’t know why brands refuse to stock them. I got universal standard jeans and they’re quite cute and I love their size inclusivity!
Another brand (online only, of course) I’ve recently found that expanded their sizes is Turn Black. (And as a person who wears almost exclusively black I was THRILLED).
Yes to all of this. I went to an Old Navy just this spring/early summer to return some items thinking I’d be able to just find a pair of shorts I preferred, only to find out the location had stopped carrying the 3x-4x size range. And to top it off they weren’t sure if other stores in my area had made the change too or not. It was so disappointing since target also no longer carries my size in store, cutting my in-person options down significantly as I no longer fit most Hackwith Design House items (local to me) and don’t like Torrid. I feel, as my body has changed so drastically over the last few years, completely cut out of the shopping experiences I used to enjoy. It is terribly heartbreaking.
I find it so hard to believe that either Target or Old Navy properly fabricated and advertised their plus size selections and still have to cut them from stores. Gah!!! I find this so depressing because it contributes even more to my scarcity mindset around clothing.
I'm so cynical at this point. If it's not a retailer that exclusively sells plus sizes, I'm going to have trust issues. And then let's not even talk about the "we go to 3X" brands where 3X=18/20. Oh c'mon! (This rant brought to you by a recent IG ad)
I don't really have words. It's just so depressing. In another comment I wrote fatphobia is absolutely stronger than profit. See: years of brands refusing to expand sizing when the majority of american women are a size 14 or above. They've been leaving money on the table because they don't want fat people wearing their brand. Also see: Lululemon, old Abercrombie CEO and others 😡
"But brands know that they can cut plus sizes and plus size consumers will come right back if and when the bigger sizes return. Because what other option do we have?"
This is so true and soooo enraging to me that I am finally taking the plunge and learning to sew my own clothes. Talk about slow fashion (ha) but I won't feel as gross about the whole ordeal at least. It makes me feel like garbage jumping through hoops to pay someone to barely entertain me as a customer, and I'm just done.
I started to learn to sew just about a year ago for many reasons, this being one. And it’s pretty amazing. Definitely slower, sometimes frustrating but you can get pretty good quickly. I did an online class with Sew Liberated to learn to make pajamas to start, I absolutely recommend it.
Oh wow, thanks for the tip! Did you find the pattern worked for bigger sizes? That's what I'm most concerned about with these classes. I really want to learn to make my own patterns so I can fit my body just right.
It definitely varies by pattern maker but there are a good amount of indie pattern companies that are making up to a size 30 based on what I’ve seen. I just checked sew liberated and they’ve got patterns up to a size 34. Also you could check out matchy matchy sewing club, which I see up to a 6x. Chalk and notch, Friday pattern company are both also good. Sometimes a pattern will split so you buy one for a size 0-16 and one for size 18-30 and that’s always a little tricky for me because I fall right in the middle but you just go by your measurements and you can always figure out how to tailor if you go too big.
Thanks so much for the help, I really appreciate it!
I sort of wonder whether the declines in the small fat range are because of “vanity”changes in the size definition. It just doesn’t track for me mathematically. Even with a large number of people on (expensive) GLP-1s, and the smaller percentage of THAT group who actually lose enough to change sizes, AND then fall into straight sizes — relative to the size of the country and therefore the clothing market, it’s a small number. This is just a really strange capitalism fail. Can fat phobia really be stronger than a profit motive?
Yes! I had this same thought. As someone who wears a 4X if I were to go on ozempic, I would most likely still need a 3X maybe a large 2X. So the math doesn’t work on that.
It absolutely is. See: years of brands refusing to expand sizing when the majority of american women are a size 14 or above. They've been leaving money on the table because they don't want fat people wearing their brand. Also see: Lululemon, old Abercrombie CEO and others. 😡
I do think this is somewhat true and is also related at least in things like tops or dresses— the trend for giant and oversized means (1) an XXL or even XL top fits many 2X bodies albeit less oversized than on a straight sized body; (2) a non zero number of 2X customers will give up on fashion buy the XXL because of brands’ inability to THINK when scaling up becomes so much more apparent (aka the “giant hammer loop” problem). In Madewell, e.g., I always try for XXL when it’s there because their 2X is always a wild set of inconsistent measurements that look odd on me.
I do also think that variations in how bodies are can be more pronounced at larger sizes which compounds the hammer loop problem. Sizing is inexact for everyone but when my type of fat is more legs and thighs and another type of fat is back and arms you can’t size up the same size 8 dress to fit both of us— only half the 2X market might buy a dress available to the entire size 8 market. So I can see how mathematicallly extended sizes can be the largest part of the market and yet sales of any ONE size are small enough to jettison for a brand. (I mean I’m sure it’s anti fat bias too, but it is probably not ONLY an anti fat bias.)
I posted this elsewhere, but you might be interested. Disturbing.
https://wapo.st/4deOaL9
Ugh that article! I remember it when it came out. I have so many issues with the reporting and analysis. It totally strikes me as what we used to call an “elevator story.” (a story that happens because of something an editor overheard in their luxury apartment elevator.)
Man, this sucks. I've always had mild beef with them as someone at the upper limit of straight size, verging into plus, you are not allowed to be both plus size AND tall.
This holds true for a lot of retailers, actually… News flash: Not all of us tall women are willowy, fam.
The lack of plus sized + tall options triggers such a deep rage in me!
YES. Can I *please* have an inseam that at least brushes my ankles? I'm not even *that* tall, and it irks me to no end.
I’m all for learning to sew and for thrifting and trading clothes, but it’s so unfair that only certain people of certain sizes need to consider those options.
I agree!
The anger and sadness I’ve been holding about Madewell feels almost intolerable? This is a brand that, for a few years, populated almost every new item in my wardrobe. I had “cool” jeans for the first time in my life! A trendy dress that didn’t come from Old Navy? Incredible! I was, for the first time, actually excited to click on a marketing email for new arrivals and see things I actually wanted! In my size! And now … disappointment. I am tired of being disappointed again and again.
I make a habit of emailing them regularly about this and usually get a perfectly nice email back — I’m surprised that one you cited said as much as it did! Here’s my most recent one from July:
“Thank you for your feedback regarding the limited selection of plus-size offerings on our website and I sincerely apologize for any disappointment and inconvenience this has caused you.
“I understand your concerns about the declining selection and infrequent updates to our plus-size collection. We strive to provide a diverse range of options for all our customers, and I apologize if we have not met your expectations in this regard. Your feedback regarding the number of available items and the limited sizes is duly noted.
“I want you to know that we appreciate your loyalty to our brand and your continued interest in shopping with us. I assure you that I will escalate your feedback to our dedicated team. It is important to us that your voice is heard, and we will carefully consider your suggestions and concerns in our ongoing efforts to improve our offerings.
“We understand how frustrating it can be when the items you are interested in sell out quickly or are not available in your size during sales. Rest assured, we are actively working to address these challenges and enhance our inventory management to better meet the needs of all our customers.
“Thank you for your understanding and support.”
Guess plus-size folks don’t fall under the umbrella of “all our customers”?
It's weird how they obfuscate the actual reason for your concern - the lack of plus size availability across the whole collection - by talking about how frustrating it is when things "sell out quickly" or "are not available during sales", which is....not the same thing.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's been giving them grief about this in their inboxes. I've gotten basically the same responses you have most of the time. My email asking specifically about brand new denim releases that had 26W and 28W marked as "out of stock" from the very day they went live on the site was what prompted the response Corinne cites here. It's shitty to give customers false info/hope and I told them as much (but you know, slightly more politely).
Yes!!! I work in TV/film in the costume department so spend a lot of time with name brand clothes in tiny sizes and the joy I felt when I could finally ALSO wear a brand like Madewell! As a jeans and tshirt kind of gal it really was so wonderful. Then in past years I started to notice that if I clicked on even just the basic tshirt the option went from 27 to 5 as I clicked from straight to plus and now this??
And what’s going on with Target stores? No more 4Xs, crappy Ava Viv selection, and now you have to buy online.
what??! no more 4X?
I haven’t seen any in several months here in Georgia. My daughter and I didn’t find a single 4X when we combed the racks during our last few trips. Still available online, though. I’m a Red Card holder and devoted Target shopper, and though I don’t wear 4X myself, my daughter does. (I’m more a 2/3X.) in any case, it pisses me off.
Ugh! Since I do most of my client shopping online, I hadn’t noticed, and I did just run to check immediately to make sure they were still there!
Maybe it’s just my area? 😬
I wonder if a lot of this also relates to brands wanting to tamp down on returns, which I believe are a huge area of profit loss. I feel like it’s so much harder for me to find clothing that fits well so I’m nearly always returning an item at least once to find the proper size, whereas my straight-sized wife is usually one and done.
I really wish they would deal with one of the actual common problems there, which is that so many brands are not sizing up patterns properly for fat bodies. My returning items to find the right fit is a symptom of their issues with providing clothes for fat people, but instead of fixing their in house errors, they penalize a whole customer demographic. It makes no senssssssse.
I agree!
Ooh yeah I am sure you’re right. I think madewell’s email probably alludes to the fact that those sizes were getting returned more!
And yet, they don't stock plus sizes in stores where we could go try them on and maybe, just maybe have fewer returns. Make it make sense!
Ughhh I don’t shop Madewell often but one of my favorite dresses I bought last year is from there. Anecdotally I personally buy a lot of XL, XXL and 1X clothes and bought 5 dresses, 3 swimsuits, 3 pairs of jeans, and 3 Kamala Harris shirts in recent weeks trying to prepare for my election volunteering and anniversary. I remember when plus sizes were in store for Old Navy because I had just given birth and I appreciated the wider range. None of my friends are on Ozempic, my friend’s husband went off of it after a year because he felt like the GI issues were too much for him and ultimately plateaued fairly quickly as he would with any diet. Fat people buy clothes, I don’t know why brands refuse to stock them. I got universal standard jeans and they’re quite cute and I love their size inclusivity!
"Fat people buy clothes, I don’t know why brands refuse to stock them."
Seriously! This is the tweet.
Another brand (online only, of course) I’ve recently found that expanded their sizes is Turn Black. (And as a person who wears almost exclusively black I was THRILLED).
Yes to all of this. I went to an Old Navy just this spring/early summer to return some items thinking I’d be able to just find a pair of shorts I preferred, only to find out the location had stopped carrying the 3x-4x size range. And to top it off they weren’t sure if other stores in my area had made the change too or not. It was so disappointing since target also no longer carries my size in store, cutting my in-person options down significantly as I no longer fit most Hackwith Design House items (local to me) and don’t like Torrid. I feel, as my body has changed so drastically over the last few years, completely cut out of the shopping experiences I used to enjoy. It is terribly heartbreaking.
I find it so hard to believe that either Target or Old Navy properly fabricated and advertised their plus size selections and still have to cut them from stores. Gah!!! I find this so depressing because it contributes even more to my scarcity mindset around clothing.
The scarcity mindset is so real. It's really hard.
I'm so cynical at this point. If it's not a retailer that exclusively sells plus sizes, I'm going to have trust issues. And then let's not even talk about the "we go to 3X" brands where 3X=18/20. Oh c'mon! (This rant brought to you by a recent IG ad)
I don't really have words. It's just so depressing. In another comment I wrote fatphobia is absolutely stronger than profit. See: years of brands refusing to expand sizing when the majority of american women are a size 14 or above. They've been leaving money on the table because they don't want fat people wearing their brand. Also see: Lululemon, old Abercrombie CEO and others 😡
I’m just so, so tired or all the bullshit.
You might be interested in this WAPO article from a couple weeks ago. No paywall.
https://wapo.st/4deOaL9